tv The Rachel Maddow Show MSNBC August 8, 2013 12:00am-1:00am EDT
promote that kind of thinking. about thinking whawe actually want government to do, and the problem with the government shutdown fight, is that you only have one side of each of that argument, talk about where spending can be curtailed and where government can be made more efficient. >> thank you both for being here tonight. that is all in for this evening. the rachel maddow show begins now. >> good evening, ezra, thank you. thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. the highest profile right wing think tank in the country is probably the heritage foundation. because they want to be thought of as a think tank and not just another run of the mill republican pressure group, it was a little embarrassing for them, when they announced their new president was going to be jim demint. he was resigning his u.s. senate think to run this think tank.
he is no more qualified to run a think tank than i am to fly rocketships, he's just a republican politician guy, he always has been. but basically, republican politics is just what heritage does. even if they want to seem slightly more emperical about it. it was a little embarrassing when they hired jim demint. what was more embarrassing, they decided to fight the prospect of immigration reform in our country by releasing a pseudo academic analysis of why immigration reform was a terrible idea. a terribly expensive, terribly bad idea to reform immigration policy in this country. turned out that under jim demint the heritage foundation had hired as a senior policy analyst to right that report, a man who's whole academic career is about ranking ethnic groups by their i.q. >> race is dinner in all sorts of ways, and probably the most
important way is in i.q. decades of psycho metric testing has indicated that in at least in america, you have jews with the highest average i.q., followed by east asians. these are real differences, they're not going to go away tomorrow. >> that is the guy who jim demint hired as senior policy analyst to crunch the numbers on immigration reform. lo and behold, the heritage study finds when a guy like that crunches the numbers. it turns out that immigrants are terrible. they're so dumb and they can never get smarter. not without better breeding at least. that was really embarrassing for the heritage foundation. it's also embarrassing they never fired that guy once everybody reported what his background was when the report came out and freaked everybody out. after his background came out, they never explained why they hired him in the first place. the heritage foundation is still
sights the report as if it's good science. here's the thing about the heritage foundation. jim demint is the president of the group now, the head of research at the heritage foundation is this guy. do you remember him? do you remember david adding ton? during all of the -- i think during the scariest scandals of the bush administration, the stuff about memos saying that torture is actually legal and cooking up the fake case for the iraq war and everything elsewhere it seemed like dick cheney and dick cheney's office were really the prime mover behind some of these most scandalous things in the bush administration, all of those scary things had david adding ton right at the center of them. he was the guy they called cheney's cheney, when dick cheney wanted to get something done, david adding ton was the guy who would find a way by hook or by crook.
jim demint runs the heritage foundation and bizarrely, also david adding ton is banned from ever traveling to russia. yes. same goes for john yu, the justice department lawyer who david adding ton got to write the memo that torture is legal. he can teach at berkeley law school, but he cannot go to russia. also, general jeffrey miller, who ran guantanamo and abu ghraib in the early days. he can't go to russia. also, weirdly, pree berara. remember him announcing all those new york legislatures getting arrested. he cannot go to russia. by name he is banned. same goes for brendan mcguire, who's an assistant u.s. attorney. same goes nor this random new york judge. same goes for this list of people. we have a list of 18 banned americans, banned by name.
u.s. citizens by name who are not allowed to go to russia for any reason, ever. starting in april of this year, and going on indefinitely. this list is russia's response to 18 russians who are never allowed to come to our country. you have 18, then we've got 18. it all happened after president obama signed this law last december that's named for a russian lawyer who died in prison in russia. he died in police custody while he was investigating alleged corruption by russian officials. he had been in jail already for about a year when he died. after he died, russia went ahead with prosecuting him after death. there was evidence that he had been tortured and beaten prior to dying in prison, nobody was ever held accountable for killing him. in protest of that, this u.s. law was passed by the u.s. congress and signed by president obama in december. and it banned from entering into the united states, a whole list of russian officials.
18 russian officials thought to be either connected with this specific death or accused of other human rights abuses. russia, of course, was enraged by this, enraged by the rebuke, enraged that the united states would try to take some sort of moral high ground on human rights issues, russia protested vociferously and it ultimately led to the tit for tat list, banning 18 americans by name, if we're going to ban 18 russians by name. it also led to a ban on american parents adopting russian orphans. and it not only banned american parents from adopting russian children in the future, it halted adoptions that were already well underway for hundreds of families. hundreds of russian kids, more than 300 who had already met their new american families, who had been told they would be going home to their new home with their new parents, those hopes were just ended in a gut-wrenchingly abrupt way. those kids were told that they would remain in their
orphanages. there are 600,000 children living in overcrowded russian orphanages. many are disabled and now parents in this country who wanted to bring a child here from russia can no longer do that. it was may of this year when a really strange story broke in russia. russia announced they had arrested an american spy who was in moscow, they said, trying to recruit russian intelligence officers to become double agents. and, you know, that is a thing that is maybe a plausible thing that can happen in the world. we've all seen the movies, the circumstances around this alleged cia spy's arrest, the circumstances were so strange, that the whole thing seemed like a parody of itself. the alleged american spy was
caught by the russians wearing an insane looking blonde wig as a disguise? he also had a crude spy kit which included a paper map of mass cow and a knife and a flashlight and a compass. also according to the video and photos released by the russians, he was carrying a letter he was going to give to some russian intelligence official, a letter that began with dear friend. we're ready to offer you $100,000 to discuss your experience, expertise and cooperation. to discuss your cooperation, is there a nigerian prince involved? it was a strange and kind of impossible to believe story that broke in may of this year, when he got this perp walk of this alleged spy. that was just a couple weeks before russia announced they were going to sell one of their most advanced anti-aircraft missile systems to the government in syria. over the loud objections of the white house in the state department and the european
union, since then, vladimir putin has signed into law, a bill that makes it illegal to talk about gay people in a way that is not hateful in russia. can you not talk about being gay in a positive way or you will be arrested. that is the law. there's a provision in the law that says, even if you are a visitor to russia, gay foreigners and tourists can be arrested and held two weeks and expelled from the country for being gay or pro gay. being pro gay means saying gay affirmative things or displaying a gay flag or holding hands with someone of the same sex. it's a new law signed into law roughly six months before russia is scheduled to host the winter olympics. hanging over all of these developments is the fate of this young man, edward snowden,
leaker of details of secret nsa surveillance programs stuck in limbo at the moscow airport for more than a month, before he was granted temporary asylum in russia. between us and russia, things are not awesome right now. things have not been awesome for i don't know -- things have not been awesome since 1947 basically. but they're bad enough now on trivial levels and on deeply serious levels, that the white house today essentially said, let's call the whole thing off. the white house today announcing that president obama has cancelled a scheduled one on one meeting between him and vladimir putin next month, during the g-20 summit in russia. given our lack of progress on issues, such as missile defense, arms control. global security issues and human rights and civil society in the
last 12 months. we have informed the russian government we believe it would be more constructive to postpone the summit until we have more results from our shared agenda. russia's disappointing decision was also a factor that we considered in assessing the current state of our bilateral relationship. that was the announcement today at the white house. the president giving some behinds that he was going to go in that direction in his interview last night on the tonight show with jay leno. >> now, were you surprised that russia granted snowden asylum? >> i was disappointed because even though we don't have an extradition treaty with them, traditionally, we have tried to respect if there's a law breaker or alleged law breaker in their country. we evaluate it and try to work with them. they didn't do that with us. there have been times where they slipped back into the cold war
thinking and the cold war mentality. >> something that shocked me about russia. i'm surprised this is not a huge story. suddenly homosexuality is against the law. this seems like germany, let's round up the jews, the gays. it seems like that, you round up people you don't want. why is not more of the world outraged at this. >> i've been clear, when it comes to universal rights, when it comes to people's basic freedoms, that whether you are discriminating on the basis of race, religion, gender or sexual orientation, you are violating the basic morality, that i think should transcend every country. now, what's happening in russia is not unique. when i travelled to africa, there were some countries that are doing a lot of good things for their people, who were working with and helping on development issues, but in some cases have persecuted gays and
lesbians. >> do you think it will affect the olympics? >> you know, i think putin and russia have a big stake in making sure the olympics work, and i think they understand that for most of the countries that participate in the olympics, we wouldn't tolerate gays and lesbians being treated differently. >> the united states is in this interesting position right now, in that our relationship with russia is pretty terrible. it is a very important relationship and it is bad right now. our president has to be in russia for another meeting coming up in a couple weeks.
even though he's going to be in russia, he's not going to talk to putin while he's there, and they've announced it weeks in advance. the fact that russia's about to host this giant legitimately international, global event. which is the winter olympics next year. and their new anti-gay law has become a focus not just in the united states, but a broader worry and concern, and increasingly protest around the world. steven fry today writing to david cameron in the u.k., civilized nations should not give russia the honor of hosting the olympics, arguing that an absolute ban on the russian winter olympics of 2014 is simply essential, stage them elsewhere at all costs.
putin cannot be seen to have the approval of the civilized world. so what happens next here? joining us now is charles cane, a professor at georgetown university. author of odessa, genius and death in a city of dreams. thank you for being with us tonight. >> thanks for having me. >> do you think it is important in the larger scope of u.s./russian relations for president obama to have cancelled this meeting with the russian president and not made any bones about it? >> well, i think it's an important step certainly, but i think for most of the people who were involved in making that decision, this was seen as the appropriate and prudent step to
take. that is he's not cancelling his trip to russia, he's certainly going to go to the g-20 summit. he'll probably meet putin around that summit itself, he'll be in the photograph with him. he'll be seen at the meetings with him. at the same time. it's very important not to have a high level summit at a time when relations are particularly bad between russia and the united states. and i think if you look at what's going on at lower levels within the u.s. government, those talks are continuing with the defense officials, with foreign ministry officials in russia. at all different kinds of levels, this isn't a break in relations, so much as it is an important symbol of how bad things have become. but really nothing more than symbolic at this stage. >> in terms of the statement from the u.s. government and sort of public rebuke of president putin, does he wear
this as a badge of honor at home? does that buy him points domestically? oar does it look bad more him domestically? >> i think it buys him some points. americans probably have a tendency to overestimate what we do matters. the fact is, that putin remains among many russians really quite popular. anything he can do to be seen as a strong leader or standing up to the united states, exposing what he considers the double standards of the u.s. and the international system, this does buy him points at home. but the fact is, if you look at the russian blogs and russian media, the latest announcement really hasn't garnered the kind of attention in moscow or elsewhere that it's garnered in the united states. >> how about the issue that president obama touched on last night on the tonight show of all places about the olympics and whether or not russia cares very much about international opinion, particularly on this issue of gay rights heading toward the olympics, it seems like with this much lead time, it might become a very big demonstrative conflict for russia at those games. >> well it could be. and to me, this is what is shaping up to be the really important issue. not just in u.s./russia relations, but in russia's position in the world. russia is taking these olympics
very seriously, they're taking place this coming february, russia is launching the largest torch ceremony. the longest torch ceremony held ever. 65,000 kilometers the torch is going to go across every constituent part of the russian federation. this is a chance for russia to demonstrate its status, showcase itself to the world. but the question of gay and lesbian rights is now becoming not just a side issue, which i think russians always saw it as being, but it's going to become one of the central issues in the way that russia is perceived. this is a step in my mind a step forward for the whole question of gay and lesbian rights. this is now a human rights issue. and i think over the coming months, we're going to see more and more countries following the path that steven fry wants britain to fall. >> charles king, thank you very much for your time tonight. it's helpful to have you here, appreciate it. lots more ahead tonight. including an amazing real life globetrotting spy drama that does not involve a funny wig.
♪ there's a new way to fight litter box odor. introducing tidy cats with glade tough odor solutions. two trusted names, one amazing product. [ sneezing ] she may be muddling through allergies. try zyrtec®. powerful allergy relief for adults and kids six years and older. zyrtec®. love the air. and experience the connectivity of the available lexus enform,
i'll believe it when i--- [ both ] oooooh... [ female announcer ] as you get older, protein is an important part of staying active and strong. ensure high protein... fifty percent of your daily value of protein. low fat and five grams of sugars. [ major nutrition ] ensure! nutrition in charge! low fat and five grams of sugars. i'm bethand i'm michelle. and we own the paper cottage. it's a stationery and gifts store. anything we purchase for the paper cottage goes on our ink card. so you can manage your business expenses and access them online instantly with the game changing app from ink. we didn't get into business to spend time managing receipts, that's why we have ink. we like being in business because we like being creative, we like interacting with people.
so you have time to focus on the things you love. ink from chase. so you can. it's red lobster's rlunch. seven selections made for your lunch break, like shrimp tacos and grilled shrimp salad with soup. all just $7.99. come in today for rlunch and sea food differently. if this summer had one news story that was so dramatic, so, i don't know what happens next, so edge of your seat, that it basically wrote its own movie trailer, it would be the case of the missing ex-cia guy. the former cia station chief accused by the italian government, of kidnapping someone off the street. the cia guy fled the country, the italians tried him and convicted him anyway in absentia, along with 22 other americans. interpol has been looking for him. he's been off the radar.
until a couple weeks ago, when he turned up because he got nabbed in panama. what is he doing in panama? i have no idea. but he was arrested while trying to leave that country picks up at the border, on an interpol alert. it's all very cloak and dagger, and that's before you get to the part of him disappearing again right after he was arrested in panama. he was arrested. it seems like the u.s. government has interceded in some way. the trail has gone cold. now tonight one of the other people convicted alongside him, who did not disappear is talking to us, live here on the show tonight. about what really happened in milan, and what is really going on right now. that is the interview tonight coming up live. stay tuned. people join angie's list for all kinds of reasons. i go to angie's list to gauge whether or not the projects will be done in a timely fashion and within budget. angie's list members can tell you
which provider is the best in town. you'll find reviews on everything from home repair to healthcare. now that we're expecting, i like the fact i can go onto angie's list and look for pediatricians. the service providers that i've found on angie's list actually have blown me away. find out why more than two million members count on angie's list. angie's list -- reviews you can trust. thto fight chronic. osteoarthritis pain. to fight chronic low back pain. to take action. to take the next step. today, you will know you did something for your pain. cymbalta can help. cymbalta is a pain reliever fda-approved to manage chronic musculoskeletal pain. one non-narcotic pill a day, every day, can help reduce this pain. tell your doctor right away if your mood worsens, you have unusual changes in mood or behavior or thoughts of suicide. anti-depressants can increase these in children, teens, and young adults. cymbalta is not for children under 18. people taking maois, linezolid or thioridazine or with
uncontrolled glaucoma should not take cymbalta. taking it with nsaid pain relievers, aspirin, or blood thinners may increase bleeding risk. severe liver problems, some fatal, were reported. signs include abdominal pain and yellowing skin or eyes. tell your doctor about all your medicines, including those for migraine and while on cymbalta, call right away if you have high fever, confusion and stiff muscles or serious allergic skin reactions like blisters, peeling rash, hives, or mouth sores to address possible life-threatening conditions. talk about your alcohol use, liver disease and before you reduce or stop cymbalta. dizziness or fainting may occur upon standing. take the next step. talk to your doctor. cymbalta can help. so, if you're sleeping in your contact lenses, what you wear to bed is your business. ask about the air optix® contacts so breathable they're approved for up to 30 nights of continuous wear. serious eye problems may occur. ask your doctor and visit airoptix.com for safety information and a free one-month trial. because what you dont know can hurt you.urance, what if you didn't know that it's smart to replace washing-machine hoses every five years? what if you didn't know that you might need extra coverage
say you were traveling in central america, you are, say, in panama, and you decide you would like to visit costa rica, in order to get there, you may consider going through the border town of paso canoas. it's described as slightly seedy and completely devoid of charm. that said, there's likely to not be any people there. this whole thing took us all of five minutes, including lining
up. as you may imagine, most travelers leave with little more than a passing glance from border officials at their passport stamp. might be handy depending on who you are and why you're traveling. on the morning of july 18th, an american man traveling alone, tried to make that routine passing glance. but instead, his passport triggered an alert from interpol, not from the band interpol, although that would be night, but from the actual interpol. the costa rican official called interpol for some direction having gotten that alert. interpol told him to not hold the man in costa rica, the man there makes it difficult to extradite someone wanted in another country. instead, they recommended they send him back into panama, and back he went. because he was apparently
determined to get into costa rica, he tried again. and the same thing happened, costa rica said no, and they sent him back to panama again. for this time, for whatever reason, the guards on the panama said they started feeling that alert as well. and the panamanian police arrived and took the american into custody. the american man picked up at that border crossing that day is a spy. was a spy at least, an american who is a retired employee of the cia. he used to be the cia station chief in milan, in italy. his name is robert suldan lady, the guy on the left. the reason him crossing the border set off an interpol alert, the italian government has tried him, convicted him and sentenced him to prison for something he participated in when he was cia station chief in milan. it was 10 years ago. an egyptian preacher disappeared off the streets of milan, he had just stepped out of his apartment to head to mosque for
noon prayers and he was snatched off the street in broad daylight. a man flung open the side door of the van, two other men grabbed him, and the van sped off. he was taken to an american military base in italy, then to an american military base in germany, and then he was flown by learjet to cairo. where he said he was horribly tortured for a long time. egypt decided not to charge him with anything, and they released him a few years later and lose a free man. in 2007, four years after he disappeared off the street in milan, the italian authorities issued an arrest warrant for two dozen other americans that they said were involved in the kidnapping. the warrant cited kidnapping, seizing a terrorist suspect without a warrant. transferring the person to
another country, often one known to employ torture. the cia had grabbed him as part of the u.s. extraordinary rendition program, which was policy in the bush years and arguably maybe still in the obama years. people suspected of terrorism grabbed in one country and not taken back to the u.s., but instead brought to some third country for questioning. and torture or whatever. it was definitely policy in the bush years, set in washington. but it's not like these washington policy makers were traveling around the world carrying it out themselves, someone down the food chain had to carry this policy out out in the field. a recent review by the open society institute says this was done by the u.s. more than 130 times after 9/11, regardless of the laws of the countries in which it happened. this thing in milan, this is the only rendition case where the americans who did it got criminally charged as kids nappers. robert had planned to retire in
italy, had a very nice house there, then all this unpleasantness happened. then came the investigation, the arrest ant, by the time the arrest warrant was out, he fled italy entirely. no one believes that most of the names on that charge sheet were actual real people, they were probably aliases since most of these folks were working under cover. but robert suldan lady were real. and none of the others were in the courtroom to face prosecution. in 2009 the ruling came down. the judge convicted him and 22 other americans for that kidnapping of that cleric in milan. remember, robert was convicted he got nine years, he was the milan station chief for the cia. one interesting thing about that trial, is that the cia station chief not in milan, but in rome and two other people were given diplomatic immunity at that trial. at that trial, in 2009 they all
got off, the station chief in rome got immunity, not the station chief in milan? why is that. could more of these american defendants have been given immunity? turns out to be a good question. he doesn't get immunity, he gets convicted. he gets nine years. all of them are in the wind, poof. italy wants them, but they don't have them. and then a few weeks ago out of nowhere, robert suldan lady turns up, he gets arrested while trying to cross the border in panama. it's crazy, probably the only place in the world that he can be sure is not going to extradite him back to italy is in the united states. the u.s. government is who he was working for, whose policies he was carrying out when he was doing the thing that got him arrested and tried and convicted. why is he not in the united states? and instead, he's in central america trying to cross borders?
and what is panama going to do now that they got him. italy says they're psyched to have found him, psyched to have gotten him back. is panama really going to send him to the italians to go to prison after all these years? will he be the one person in the world to serve prison time for this u.s. government policy of extraordinary rendition? what's going to happen? it's fascinating, right? how does it resolve? dude disappears again, after getting arrested in panama. he disappears again. and it's not that he geared because he's about to turn up in italy. >> i have a couple. >> there's a report that robert lady who was in panama, being detained, that he's on a plane bound for the united states. is -- do you know what his status is, and can you tell us what his situation is? >> it's my understanding that he is in fact enroute or back in the united states. beyond that, i have no further details. >> do you know when he left? >> i don't have any further
details. >> either enroute or back in the united states. they don't know? today katherine asked about it again. >> robert lady and his whereabouts and any contact you've had with the italians on this case? >> well, i know that a couple weeks ago, my colleague marie mentioned that he was en route back to the united states, and he was -- and obviously returned, he's a private citizen, we don't track his movements. beyond that, i don't have any update. >> any contact between the u.s. and the italians in this case. >> i don't have any update on that either. >> i don't have any update beyond what i just shared on him. he's a private citizen. he's returned to the united states. >> he's a private citizen, he returned to the united states, and beyond that, nothing, ed that nada, zip. the trail goes cold, gone again. this guy who naturally we do not even have a real picture of,
this former cia spy has disappeared yet again. he's still a wanted man in italy, as are the 22 other americans, or at least the 22 other american names convicted alongside him. even though he has now disappeared again, reportedly somewhere in the united states, we're not getting any explanation. now one of his colleagues in the cia who was convicted alongside him has come forward to tell her side of the story. her name is sabrina, she was also convicted in that italian court. she says that she and the other americans convicted in absentia in 2009 did not cook up this abu omar plan on their own. another cia in italy, the one who got immunity at that trial. the rome station chief, he was the u.s. official who was hell bent on that. misled their bosses that he was back in d.c. the rest of them, she says, officers like her were thrown under the bus.
left out in the cold by their own government. we asked the cia for comment tonight about the accusations from this former officer. cia naturally is not talking. but sabrina desousa is talking and she joins us for the interview straight ahead. hero: if you had a chance to go anywhere in the world, but you had to leave right now, would you go? man: 'oh i can't go tonight' woman: 'i can't.' hero : that's what expedia asked me. host: book the flight but you have to go right now. hero: (laughs) and i just go? this is for real right? this is for real? i always said one day i'd go to china, just never thought it'd be today. anncr: we're giving away a trip every day. download the expedia app and your next trip could be on us. expedia, find yours. [ beeping ] ♪
[ male announcer ] we don't just certify our pre-owned vehicles. we inspect, analyze and recondition each one, until it's nothing short of a genuine certified pre-owned... mercedes-benz for the next new owner. ♪ hurry in to your authorized mercedes-benz dealer for 1.99% financing during our certified pre-owned sales event through september 3rd. [ male announcer ] over the last 100 years, tennis has gotten a lot less dainty, rackets less splintery, courts more surfacey. technology made the game a whole lot faster and awesomer. it's kind of like how esurance used technology to build a car insurance company for the modern world. advantage, you. let's give it up for the modern world. [ crowd cheering ] [ male announcer ] or...that works. esurance. proud sponsor of the u.s. open. check out esurance on facebook. where over seventy-five percent of store management started as. i'm the next american success story. working for a company hourly associates. there's opportunity here. i can use
in 2009 in italy, 23 americans were convicted of kidnapping. an egyptian cleric had been pulled off the streets. they were sentenced to four or nine years in prison. they were convicted in absentia. most of the names of those on the list may have been aliases, since these were operatives, and in some cases working under cover. of the very few named officers in the case he faces six years in an italian prison if italy can find him in the world and bring him back. a few weeks ago he surfaced for the first time in years. since then he's disappeared again. panama did not send him back to italy. last they knew. he had flown back to the u.s. and now who knows. another officer on the hook is this woman. she denied working for the cia, and denied any involvement in the rendition of the cleric off that milan street. now, sabrina says the cia officer who planned the kidnapping was sent to egypt.
he was tortured and eventually released without being charged with anything. sabrina desousa is now essentially blowing the whistle on the whole operation, saying it was the botched work of another cia station chief who was bucking for promotion and able to finagle diplomatic immunity to protect himself from prosecution at least initially. as all these other americans went down. the u.s. government has thrown her and the others under the bus. for sabrina desousa to come out and naming names -- joining us now is sabrina desousa. thank you for being leer. >> thank you. >> is the publicly available information, a lot of which i've summarized here tonight. is it basically factual? are we getting anything wrong in the public understanding of the case? >> no, you got a lot of things right. but the focus of this has not been on the senior officials that went along with the plan. >> what do you mean? >> he wanted this rendition to be done. >> he was the station chief in rome? >> he had to make a case, not
only to cia headquarters, but because this was a nato country the case had to be made all the way up to condoleezza rice. and then that had to go up to george bush who had to approve it as the president has to approve the rendition. the only way costelli could get approval is if silvio berlusconi was on board of with it, and the head of the cia was on board with it. the italians had to be the law enforcement group on the ground to arrest. >> they had to be the ones to grab him? >> they had to be the ones to arrest him, and then turn him over to the americans. that's the we it was supposed to function. the italian intelligence decided they were not going to be part of this. and silvio berlusconi said absolutely not.
they didn't have the authority to do this for berlusconi. they were not allowed to be involved in renditions. and finally, they also discovered a few weeks later, that the italian law enforcement had omar under surveillance for two years. and they could not disrupt -- >> they picked up because -- >> they were not allowed by law to disrupt that investigation. >> if jeffrey costelli was the architect of this whole plan, how was he able to get diplomatic immunity initially when none of the other -- >> that's a good question. officially, there's nothing on
the record that says the u.s. invoked immunity for him. neither that they waived or invoked immunity for the rest of us. it may have been something that happened behind the scenes or the judge -- and now the judge has to explain why he just out of the blue gave diplomatic immunity to these three individuals. >> it's strange in connection with you, as someone who's working with the cia, obviously, you were not a station chief at the time, what was your job. >> it doesn't matter if you were station chief or not. you have immunity because you're accredited to that particular
country. so, you know, the italians agree that their diplomats in that country will not face criminal prosecutions or anything like that, the problem in italy, the judiciary is separate from the government of italy, which is why we have gotten to a bad situation where italy has set a precedent for diplomats to be prosecuted. >> right. do you have any insight into the movements or the predicament of robert suldan lady, who just turned up in panama, who looked like he might be getting sent back to italy, but has turned up in the united states. >> i don't have any insight. but listening to your clips, you make a important point. i'm going through this right now. this is state department and the government saying we don't know who he is, where he is. he's a citizen, a private citizen. this is what i've faced. since 2009 when i left the cia i've been on my own fighting
this matter, seriously. i found my own lawyers, my own resources, i had to sue the government to get a defense in italy. for the government to just abandon everyone and say, well, we don't know what lady is doing. he has an interpol conviction against him. where is his government in protecting their diplomats? what kind of message does it send when for the first time in 55 years, the military allowed a senior colonel to be convicted. >> they secured a pardon for the colonel thereafter. >> yes, that was completely political. that was one of the reasons i decided to come out. there was this debate about, he should have been extradited to italy. absolutely not, you're supposed to protect these -- particularly when it's other people who really messed this up. bob absolutely did not want to
have this rendition take place at all. but he was pressured by rome to do it. >> you feel like it is the policy that ought to be on trial, if there is going to be a trial, if there are objections to the way this went down, it is the policy and the policy makers who should be on trial for this, not the people who carried it out? >> absolutely. rachel at the end of the day, it's u.s. policy, the anger again -- and the frustration for victims and, you know, against american policy is directed at whom, those who are vulnerable and accessible. it's our diplomats overseas, that's why you have benghazi, the convictions, the embassies are closing down. the ones who create the policy, the ones who create these programs. every one of them is immune from prosecution in the united states. >> sabrina desousa who has brought these complaints to congress and gone through those channels has exhausted those channels as best as i can tell. thank you for coming forward to tell this story. i'm sure this goes against the grain for you in some ways, i
appreciate you helping us understand it. >> thank you. we'll be right back. that inspire families to get out, enjoy moving together, and even track their activity online. it's part of our goal to inspire more than three million people to rediscover the joy of being active this summer. see the difference all of us can make... together.
uh-oguess what day it is!is?? huh...anybody? julie! hey...guess what day it is?? ah come on, i know you can hear me. mike mike mike mike mike... what day is it mike? ha ha ha ha ha ha! leslie, guess what today is? it's hump day. whoot whoot! ronny, how happy are folks who save hundreds of dollars switching to geico? i'd say happier than a camel on wednesday. hump day!!! yay!! get happy. get geico. fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more.
a texas senator will be in iowa in october 2013 because he either wants to run for president or because he wants people to think he wants to run for president. i'm randomly going to iowa is how politicians from iowa say i'm running for president unless audio evidence of what seems like pretty much flat out corruption of the whole iowa process makes people think twice about that. audio evidence. next. with the spark miles card from capital one, bjorn earns unlimited rewards for his small business. take these bags to room 12 please. [ garth ] bjorn's small business earns double miles on every purchase every day. produce delivery. [ bjorn ] just put it on my spark card. [ garth ] why settle for less? ahh, oh! [ garth ] great businesses deserve unlimited rewards. here's your wake up call. [ male announcer ] get the spark business card from capital one and earn unlimited rewards. choose double miles or 2% cash back
on every purchase every day. what's in your wallet? [ crows ] now where's the snooze button? [ crows ] i'to guard their manhood with trnew depend shields and guards. the discreet protection that's just for guys. now, it's your turn. get my training tips at guardyourmanhood.com you may be muddling through allergies. try zyrtec® for powerful allergy relief. and zyrtec® is different than claritin® because it starts working faster on the first day you take it. zyrtec® love the air. it's red lobster's rlunch. seven selections made for your lunch break, like shrimp tacos and grilled shrimp salad with soup. all just $7.99. come in today for rlunch and sea food differently. the last thing i want is to feel like someone is giving me a sales pitch, especially when it comes to my investments.
you want a broker you can trust. a lot of guys at the other firms seemed more focused on selling than their clients. that's why i stopped working at my old brokerage and became a financial consultant with charles schwab. avo: what kind of financial consultant are you looking for? talk to us today. i'll believe it when i--- [ both ] oooooh... [ female announcer ] as you get older, protein is an important part of staying active and strong. ensure high protein... fifty percent of your daily value of protein. low fat and five grams of sugars. [ major nutrition ] ensure! nutrition in charge! yeah? then how'd i get this... [ voice of dennis ] ...safe driving bonus check? every six months without an accident, allstate sends a check.
silence. are you in good hands? running for president means starting in iowa, right? iowa's first. their caucuses have been first in the nation for 40 years now. so starting to run for president means starting in iowa, which means first competing in the ames, iowa, straw poll, which is a scam. it is a total scam, a fake
wigged pay for votes, not a real contest pretending to be a contest. the iowa straw poll costs money to vote. it costs $30 to cast a ballot. some buy those ballots for people with the understanding that those people will then vote for them and, tah-dah, it's actual vote buying in america in the 21st century. democracy, faked. this is the seriousness with which iowa takes its responsibility of being first in the nation in picking a new president, right? getting all the attention and political pandering that goes with that status. there's a lot of other places in the country like camden, new jersey, anybody, appalachia and others that could use the attention in the political process, but because iowa is first, iowa gets it all from the presidential candidates, every time we pick a new president and the straw poll is the first sign of how they handle that great power and that great
responsibility, and then come the iowa caucuses. actual election night. the iowa caucuses are run by the parties and not by the state government, and this past year on election night in the all-important first in the nation iowa caucuses to choose a republican nominee to run against president obama, the chairman of the iowa republican party made the announcement late after midnight on the night of the caucuses that mitt romney had won. wow, romney wins iowa. seriously? no, actually a couple weeks later same guy issued a statement saying that mitt romney hadn't actually won. maybe they were like a tie, and a couple days later, okay, ran santorum won maybe they think, and when it came time to pick delegates, they gave most of their delegates to ron paul, so, iowa, wow, why are they first? you tell me, but they are first, and iowa politicos have always been ready to fight to the death to defend that because it makes
them seem important. the endorsement of an iowa politician is worth more than in another state like kansas or connecticut because iowa is first, and so iowa politicians get fought over by all the national brand name politicians of their party. must feel great, right? must feel like a million bucks or maybe like 208,000 bucks, which is allegedly what one republican state senator charged the ron paul campaign to switch his endorsement from michele bachmann to ron paul, which he did. the allegations were made by the iowa republican, a conservative news site yesterday. the state senator denies it and says the e-mail appears to show his list of demands are utter fabrications. now though the same site published sound of allegedly him talking and fretting about getting paid by ron paul's campaign via a check made out to his wife. >> did i tell you what happened? >> no. >> i kept saying no, and my wife was like, we need to do this, and then i went to the bathroom,
and we were in a restaurant, and he made it out to my wife. i'm going to give you the check back. >> oh, you are? >> do you think i should, or do you think i should hold on to it? i'm not cashing it. >> i understand. >> do you think i should hold on to it, or do you think i should do a deal? should i hold on to it so i then have something over him? >> i don't think i would give it to him, no. >> okay. >> i think you need to sit down with an attorney saying here's what i've done and where am i? he'll probably tell you to shut up. >> i have. i mean i've learned my lesson. >> has now hired a lawyer who says regardless of the tape and the e-mails that appear to show otherwise, all this never happened. this comes at the same time that the fec started looking into whether or not in that same year an endorsement from an iowa anti-gay group cost rick